From the years of the master state to those of the unleashed market up to the pandemic, and now the war, which forcefully relaunch the weight of the state. And, above all, they reaffirm the role of democracies. “For years I have supported the strength of democracy against the indiscreet charm of authoritarian regimes”, explains Giuliano Amato. “Of course, today democracy is made stronger more than anything else by the unacceptability of authoritarianism, but its weaknesses remain.” Interviewed by the director de The print Massimo Giannini at the Turin Economy Festival, the president of the Constitutional Court reflects on the long wave that has led the world, and the West in particular, from facing a pandemic and its social aftermath to plunging into a conflict in the heart of ‘Europe.
President, what lesson is this war teaching us and how will the course of events, the way of living, thinking, producing change?
“While Putin was still relatively” calm “in Western societies the idea that centralized authoritarianism, his speed of decision making and efficiency were not a despicable system compared to the fatigue of democracies”.
Then came the conflict and it made us understand something that we may not have understood.
“Can it be defined as a special operation war, can mothers be denied the bodies of dead children, can it be argued that for a soldier who has occupied a territory, the women he meets can be raped because they are spoils of war?” While journalists from all over the world document it, in Russia all this is denied and those who dare to talk about it are arrested. Newspapers like the Novaya Gazeta they preferred to suspend the publications since the only alternative was to tell the untruth of the regime. Here is what we understand: Democracy is founded on the fact that no one owns the truth; there are the facts and the discussion on how to deal with them ».
Is it right and in accordance with the values and principles of the Constitution to arm the Ukrainian people who are resisting?
«According to Article 11 Italy repudiates war as a means of resolving disputes, but does not repudiate war in absolute terms. The Constitution provides for the sacred duty of defending the homeland. And then there are the constraints assumed at European and international level: the duty to solidarity with the members of the European Union attacked by others and the solidarity clause between the NATO member countries ».
Ukraine is not a country of the EU or even of NATO.
«The UN charter provides for the obligation to intervene alongside attacked countries while waiting for the UN to act, something that never happens, since it does not have its own military force. It is an unclear rule because it provides for a transience of self-defense, even assisted, pending a UN intervention that has historically never occurred. So here I stick to the sense that Italians attribute to the principles of our Constitution: solidarity, the fundamental value of the Republic, respect for the dignity of the person, equality, are they valid only towards us? Should the boundary of human solidarity be marked by treaties or by conscience? ”.
And here we return to the value of our democracies but also to their fragility.
«We live in an era of return of the state after the financial crisis of ten years ago and the pandemic. The neoliberal wave has generated a new, disproportionate need for the state. Among the negative effects of the neoliberal season is the growing chase of finance for short-term returns, which has caused damage to the real economy. Thus the State returned not to limit the genius and the unruly of the market but to provide the private sector with the resources for medium-term investments ”.
With what risks?
«Replicating ancient vices of the past but not only. There is a risk of the “bossy state”, the master state which, through the provision of resources, can create the conditions for a centralizing authoritarianism ».
Was Helicopter money, the scattering of resources to support families and businesses during the pandemic, therefore a mistake?
“It was a question of survival. In our legal system, people come before the state. We are not slaughter fodder. But we cannot live eternally embraced by the idea of a paying state of last resort ».
Budget variances, bonuses, subsidies, support, refreshments: are we getting citizens used to the fact that sooner or later the helicopter passes by and distributes money like rain?
“It has been like this for some time. Every now and then I wonder if today Nino Andreatta, a great Italian who in 1981 obtained the divorce between the Bank of Italy and the Treasury, and that governments and Parliament could no longer draw on resources with a certain ease and at an interest rate symbolic, it would ask for a divorce between the treasuries and the central banks ”.
And what answer do you give?
«That he would have asked for it for a long time. The idea that something called a budgetary gap has nothing to do with debt has been fostered by the fact that the central banking system has been pumping government bonds for years. Then one day inflation arrives: usually to fight it, interest rates are raised but now we are surprised that just talking about it, the spread, which we had almost forgotten, re-emerges ».
However, we have a gigantic problem of social equity that inflation and war cause to explode again. But if the state has to keep the helicopter on the ground, how can we avoid that the most fragile are paying?
“Among the weaknesses of democracy this is the main one. It needs social cohesion, which is achieved with the consent of all towards common goals but on condition that the distances in terms of income and opportunities do not exceed a certain level of tolerability. In Italy this issue is aggravated by the fact that while in other countries the gaps have grown due to the dizzying rise in high incomes and assets, in Italy there has also been a lowering of medium-low incomes “.
Who should intervene?
“Those who are part of the real economy have the responsibility for an adequate growth of everyone’s incomes. The state has the duty and the right to tell companies that growth is not theirs alone; it belongs to the country and its citizens. Wage growth is not a responsibility of the state. It would be wrong. And I don’t think there are any risks of a wage-price spiral. I’m not proud of so many things done but I certainly am of the agreement signed in 1992 in the Bank of Italy with Ciampi over a plate of spaghetti with tomato sauce. We defined the wage growth ceiling, Carlo Azeglio told me: now what must happen on the currency markets happen but we are safe. The lira devalued up to 25% in the autumn, but in 1993 the domestic inflation rate did not rise.
It seems to suggest a great social pact like in ’92 -’93. Do you see a fruitful political and social climate?
“It is said that a social compromise is no longer possible because the internal labor market is frayed and there is no longer a national representation and on the other hand the employer component has become supranational. This asymmetry exists but if we photograph Italy today, the trade unions and employers’ organizations retain a representative force ».
Is politics missing?
«The social partners alone cannot do it. There will also be a third player at that table ».
Is the future of democracies in danger?
“If we add up the negative and positive factors, the balance tilts on the negative side. Among the aggregating factors the regressive ones prevail: the defense of white supremacism, of traditional values compared to innovative ones, of those who are already there compared to those who come from afar. To this we must add the radical polarization of political systems. On the other hand, we cannot ignore the quality generated by our societies that did not exist before: solidarity, indignation towards discrimination and atrocities, the knowledge and sensitivity of young people, the work of teachers. New foods and fragrances come out of the kitchen. The other day I met an elementary class, I told them that in the year I was born a law established that Jewish children could no longer go to school. A little girl raised her hand and said: like Anne Frank. She knew the story. I was moved and thought there is hope. And of that we live ».