LONDON – Any new – reportedly forthcoming – Brexit deal between the EU and the UK on the Northern Ireland protocol to break the political deadlock needs to be accepted by the DUP, the main Unionist party in Belfast. In this interview, the former leader and grandee of the Democratic Unionist Party, Nigel Dodds, pulls no punches against the Protocol and the role of the European Court of Justice (ECJ); he talks about the mood and the position of the DUP (“we’re united as never before”) and warns the EU and the UK government about their next moves and the dangers to the peace process in Northern Ireland.
Lord Nigel Dodds, former DUP leader and one of the veterans of the party, are you optimistic about what is coming out of the negotiations between the UK and the EU?
“It remains to be seen. But if the outline of the agreement is as is now being reported, which is merely about reducing the number of checks on goods coming in to Northern Ireland and some tinkering with the role of the ECJ, that doesn’t fundamentally alter the Protocol itself. Obviously, we have to wait and see what the actual details are. Several details have been kept so secret at the moment”.
My understanding is that the ECJ, because of the EU single market, may still have the last word on several matters in Northern Ireland. If that is confirmed, will it be acceptable for the DUP?
“The fundamental point is the imposition of the EU law on Northern Ireland: if you deal with that, then you deal with the Court situation. For us, as UK citizens, it’s wrong politically, constitutionally, morally, that laws are made for our country by a foreign political entity, in its interests, with no vote by anyone in Northern Ireland. That’s the fundamental problem, and it’s the reason why there are customs borders and regulatory borders between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, which need to change. The UK government back in July 2021 in its command paper said that to be dealt with. They were proposing a system of deregulation. They brought the Protocol bill forward [in British parliament]which would have dealt with these issues. Our view is that they must stick to that approach. Any deal that falls short of dealing with that problem, doesn’t meet our “Seven tests”. They knew that and the EU knew that. So, it’s really the UK government’s choice. Do they wish to have the Belfast agreement up and running or do they want to continue with this problem? It’s really their choice.”
So, if the Protocol is not fundamentally changed, the DUP boycott of the Northern Ireland executive will continue.
“Yeah, because having the EU making our laws on manufacturing, trade and agrifood undermines the Belfast agreement. The Assembly is the place where those laws should be made. But the Assembly has been stripped of that power, unilaterally, with no consent by the people of Northern Ireland, unionist or nationalist. The Protocol undermines the Belfast agreement and we will not operate that agreement since it has been undermined, if the Brexit protocol continues with the imposition of EU law”.
So this sort of deal would be unacceptable for you and the DUP.
“We have to wait and see obviously, what the outcome of the negotiations are. The court is only a problem because the laws are being imposed, that’s the real issue. If the outcome doesn’t deal with the fundamental problem, which is one of sovereignty and the upholding of the Belfast agreement, if it continues to drive a coach and horses through democracy, through the Belfast agreement and through the constitutional position in Northern Ireland, we will certainly not be going back into the government.”
What’s your best case scenario, or your wish, about these UK-EU negotiations?
“Our wish was what the British government set forward, both under Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, and Rishi Sunak made this pledge as well when he was campaigning for the leadership, which is: to agree on a negotiate outcome which meets the objectives and the aims of the Protocol Bill. And, if they can’t achieve that by negotiation, then Parliament to enact the Protocol Bill and free us of EU laws in that way. That wasn’t the DUP, that was actually the UK Government to put that forward. We’re saying: “Keep to that”. That’s the only real way. We’re very, very not just disappointed, but angry at the fact that the government has stalled the Protocol bill, which clearly they – Sunak, Truss and Johnson – all said it was British government policy. By failing to proceed with that – as they seem to be now adopting a position of simply making the current Protocol work differently – that’s not going to suffice. Because they made pledges to people in Northern Ireland in the Command Paper of 2021 and in the Protocol Bill, that they would fundamentally restore democracy and sovereignty to the elected representatives of people in Northern Ireland. We will be accepting anything less than they put forward. These are UK Government commitments, not just the DUP.”
Do you trust Rishi Sunak? Or do you fear that he can come out with a bad deal?
“I not going to get into trust issues. I’m not putting too much trust in any politician. The only thing I look for are outcomes, results. If Sunak doesn’t deliver what was promised in terms of the Protocol Bill, either by way of legislation or by way of negotiation, he will be deciding to cause the continuation of the impasse in Northern Ireland. It’s his choice, it’s not a question of trust in them. We just want them to fulfil the pledges they made. If they don’t, then the consequences are on them in terms of the political process in Northern Ireland. Which has for 25 years has made progress but now it has been thrown into chaos as a result of the EU and the way British governments have acted. Anyone in Brussels or London or Dublin who has any thought or care for the peace process, should be examining what they’re going to do in the coming days and weeks”.
You as DUP have already been disappointed by Boris Johnson years ago when he signed the current Protocol Bill. Do you fear to get “cheated” again?
“We never put our trust in Boris Johnson, Theresa May or anyone. We made decisions and votes on the basis of what was put in front of us. We supported Boris Johnson where he was adopting the correct approach, and we opposed him when he took the wrong approach. It’s exactly the same for Sunak. If Sunak comes forward with the outcome that solves the problem, great. If he doesn’t, we will not be going back into the government of Northern Ireland. So it’s up to him, without question. I have no expectations either way. I just want to see the result.”
What’s the mood in the DUP right now, ahead of days and weeks when you unionists will face crucial decisions?
“We had a party executive meeting last Thursday night. It was entirely united. There was no dissent. I’ve never seen the party as united in its determination to see the objectives in terms of the protocol achieved, and united also in our determination that we will not be implementing the Protocol in government. So if the Protocol is still there, there can’t be government in which we participate. All the reports from our councillors – we’re going into council elections in May – tell us that people are very, very solid and that we must hold firm. Despite the Ulster Unionist Party position, which is causing incredible problems at a local level where they’re taking a softer line, unionists are united on this issue. That’s why you saw yesterday, even when there were attempts to bring back the Assembly to deal with some health issue, some organ donation issue, we didn’t get any criticism at a grassroots level from our supporters or constituents for saying no to that. There is no pressure on us to get back into the government. If anything, the mood is hardening. We the DUP are back up to 26-27% [according to polls]. Where were those votes going? They were going to a party to our right. So it’s not as if the electorate is moving against us. If anything, the mood in the country is hardening on unionists.”
So this radical line is paying off for the DUP.
“Yes, electorally it is. But this is not just a party political calculation in terms of votes to the party. The other week the Supreme Court ruled that the Protocol violates the Constitution of Northern Ireland and violates the Acts of Union. So we’re not going to sit back and to say we can fudge this issue. We have to have this sorted out. I don’t care whether they achieve the objectives through negotiation or by legislation. But the solution is in the objectives of the Protocol bill”.
Do you think that unionism will face an existential danger if you give in on the Protocol?
“If we give in on the Protocol and allow a foreign entity to make our laws, that will over time increasingly diverge our economy and our laws from the rest of the UK. It will push us more and more and more into the orbit of the Irish Republic and the EU. We cannot allow this situation to develop. Our part of the United Kingdom is basically colonised by the EU. Trade and laws and everything else diverge increasingly from the rest of the United Kingdom. That is an intolerable situation. No Unionist who believes in the Union will put their hands to such a situation.
But it would be reasonable to see the Northern Ireland executive back up and running before the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday agreement. Don’t you think that if this impasse is being dragged on and on, it can get dangerous?
“I would love to see a situation where by the 25th anniversary the government is back up and running. We have worked with power sharing arrangements for many years, and we are quite prepared to do that again. But we will not have the institutions up and running so long as the current Protocol exists. So it’s really in the hands of the UK Government and the EU to decide what priority they put in. This Protocol is designed to protect the Belfast agreement. Instead, it’s destroying it.”