JERUSALEM. In the seat of Israel’s government, not far from the Knesset, the prime minister’s office is the “situation room”, from where it is possible to follow the smallest crisis moment by moment. The endless comings and goings of civil advisers and military aides reflect the hectic rhythm of work, even on theday when Shushan Purim is celebrated almost everywhere in Jerusalem, commemorating the miracle performed by Queen Esther who saved the Jews from extermination in Ancient Persia. Seated at a large wooden table, with volumes of the Babylonian Talmud and of the Encyclopaedia Judaica behind him, Benjamin Netanyahu, surrounded by a nationwide scene of the largest popular protests ever, is preparing for the journey that today is bringing him to Rome. It is the first interview he has granted a foreign newspaper since the demonstrations against his justice reform began nine weeks ago. Netanyahu explains to the Republic that he is not feeling besieged because “Israeli democracy is proving to be robust and will emerge stronger from this test”. He hints he is not ruling out a compromise on the reform and rejects the accusation of being blackmailed by the extreme right. He comes to Rome looking for agreements on innovation and natural gas and against Iranian nuclear power. But the request he has for Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni – and that he cares about the most – comes with his last words summing up diplomacy and history: “It is time for Rome to recognise Jerusalem, our capital for the last 3,000 years”.
Israel is experiencing the largest political protest ever. Demonstrations against justice reform have been going on for nine weeks. You and your government are accused of wanting to destroy the democratic system. What is your reply?
“I say the protests show how solid our democracy is”.
Why are you going ahead with the reform when popular opposition is so widespread?
“Because people want very strongly that the balance of power between the executive, legislative and judiciary be restored. The problem arises in the judiciary, which has been overactive and has extraordinary powers, thus upsetting the balance. A reform is necessary. The judiciary must be independent, not omnipotent. This is the substance of the debate. Protests are a natural part of this confrontation, but I believe we will overcome them”.
What do you say to protesters who fear for the fate of the state?
“I say democracy is not at risk and will be strengthened by a reform of the judiciary, considered necessary by an overwhelming part of the population”.
There is an unspoken negotiation on the reform. Will it overcome the strong differences?
“The extent and scope of the reform will be determined in the coming weeks”.
Outside, a portion of the country is on fire, accusing you of violating the fundamental principles of the state.
“Democracy is the result of a balance between the will of the people and the result of elections. Protecting the right of minorities is therefore fundamental. The balance of power serves precisely this purpose, but in the last 30 years in Israel it failed due to the overwhelming power of the judiciary”.
How do you feel having to face a nation in turmoil?
“I remember when I passed the economic reforms, protests were numerous. At the time, people were against the shift towards a market economy. Trade unions in particular carried on for months, but in the end the reforms generated a very solid economy. Also, because they led to a new relationship between government and trade unions, which today are cooperating much better than before”.
You are the longest-serving prime minister to govern this country, and many observers consider you a very capable politician, but now two of your ministers, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, are stealing the show with fiery actions and statements exalting extremism and worrying allies. Aren’t you afraid of being trapped by the same extreme right wing that allowed you to win the elections?
“Ben-Gvir and Smotrich joined Likud, not the opposite. Security policy, foreign policy and many crucial choices in the political guidance of the government are entrusted to Likud under my leadership”.
Among the protesters’ harshest accusations is your lack of respect for minorities.
“There are many misunderstandings. For example, they accuse the extreme right of attacking civil rights and gay rights, but few people know that within Likud there is a special section defending the rights of the LGBT community, and the head of the section, Amir Ohana, was elected and later chosen by me as president of the Knesset [the Parliament]. Previously, he was Minister of Justice. The truth is there are many stereotypes against this government. We are and will remain true to civil rights, minority rights and democracy”.
Are the Abraham Accords, signed in 2020 with Bahrain, the Emirates, Sudan and Morocco, at risk, or can they evolve and involve Saudi Arabia?
“They will evolve, for two different reasons. The first is the threat constituted by Iran trying to dominate the entire region, destroying the state of Israel and overthrowing the leaders of many Arab states. These countries can see we share a strategic interest. The second reason is they see our technology and innovation and understand the opportunity it represents for the entire region. Most importantly, the Abraham Accords overturned a negotiating approach that had held sway in the Middle East for a quarter of a century. It used to be said that peace with the Palestinians would lead to peace in the region, but it did not work. Now we are going the opposite way but with the same goal: peace. Without going to Ramallah, we have signed agreements with Bahrain, the Emirates, Sudan and Morocco. Others will follow with more states. Especially if we have the adhesion of Saudi Arabia. But it has to be a Saudi choice”.
Riyadh retorts that they will join only on condition that peace with them will lead to a final agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. Is this a possible goal?
“Riyadh has released many statements, but naturally I believe that the peace agreement between us and the Saudis will lead to an agreement with the Palestinians, provided they agree to recognise the existence of Israel”.
The fact remains that peace with the Palestinians could not be further away. The violence in the Territories is increasing, and your contacts with the Palestinian National Authority are almost non-existent. Did the Abraham Accords choice to leave the Palestinians last turn out to be a mistake?
“The problem with the Palestinians is they are prisoners of their refusal of Israel as a Jewish state, regardless of borders. They were against it before the birth of the state and were against it afterwards. That is why they rejected the partition of Palestine in 1947, why they fought against Israel when Judea and Samaria were in Jordanian hands, and why the PLO was created in 1964, three years before the Six-Day War. The Palestine they wanted to liberate was Tel Aviv and Haifa. Their fantasy of wanting to destroy Israel, which continued even after the Oslo Accords in 1993, will never end by Palestinian political choice but may dissolve as a result of our peace agreements with Arab states. If it disappears, realistic conditions for peace with them will be in place”.
If Palestinian President Abu Mazen wanted to negotiate, would you be ready?
“Yes, of course, it’s them who do not want to negotiate”.
CIA Director William Burns says Iran needs just 12 days to start enriching uranium for military purposes. How can Tehran be stopped?
“Iran should know we will do everything in our power to prevent it from becoming a nation on the threshold of nuclear power. There is no way to stop a rogue regime from obtaining nuclear weapons without a credible military threat”.
You are on your way to Italy. What are the priorities regarding relations with our government?
“Firstly, our relations are very solid, but I would like to see more economic cooperation. Israel is the home of innovation, and I believe closer interactions with your companies will be good for both of us. And we have natural gas: we have plenty of it and I would like to talk about how to bring it to Italy to support its economic growth. On the strategic front, we will discuss Iran. We must prevent it from going nuclear because its missiles could reach many countries, including Europe, and no one wants to be taken hostage by a fundamentalist regime with a nuclear weapon. In addition, I hope Italy’s approach to UN votes will change much faster than what happened until now. Since 2015, Italy has voted against us 89 times at the UN. It clashes with our excellent bilateral relations. Instead of dealing with nations like Syria and Iran, where the most basic rights are trampled on, at the UN, countries vote against Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. Finally, I would like a closer partnership with Italy on EU policies”.
Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni is leader of Fratelli d’Italia, a very pro-Western party, but whose roots lie in post-fascism. What is your approach to such a European political force?
“I pay attention to whether the people in such a political force have learned the lessons of history. I have no doubt that Meloni and other leaders of her party have learned it, as they clearly condemn anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. This is fundamental. The danger we have today is the convergence we are witnessing in Europe between certain groups of the extreme left who, driven by their hatred of Israel, go to the point of allying themselves with the jihadists of radical Islam who despise women’s rights”.
You are among the few leaders to be in direct contact with Russian President Putin. Are you ready to help bring the war in Ukraine to an end?
“I am ready to do anything to put an end to this carnage. If both sides decide that the time has come to seek mediation and I can be of help, I will consider it. But, tragically, I do not believe that time has yet come. This war will go for a while before this opportunity will come’”.
Why are you keeping a balanced stand between Russia and Ukraine?
“Israel is the only country whose pilots fly over the Golan Heights at a very short distance from the Russian jets in Syria, because we have to prevent Iranian military aid to Hezbollah. We are clearly interested in avoiding a confrontation with Russia. Thousands of Jews are still living in Russia, and we do not want them to be denied immigration to Israel. Our relationship with Russia is very complex but we do everything we can to help the Ukrainians and to end this conflict”.
You are a well-known lover of ancient history, Jewish as well as Roman. Is there a lesson from that distant past that can help us face the challenges of a 21st century that keeps surprising us?
“History is impartial and unforgiving. It does not favour the virtuous, nor who is morally superior. It favours the strong. If we want to protect our values, our rights, our freedoms, we must be strong. The lesson from the past is that moral superiority does not guarantee the survival of our civilisation. The Roman Empire survived for centuries because it was the strongest; when stronger ones arose, it disappeared. Nothing can guarantee the duration of a nation, but what we can do is protect our freedoms, using force if necessary, for as long as possible. Speaking of history, however, I believe the tie between Rome and Jerusalem has a lot to teach us…”
Do you think about Titus destroying the Temple?
“It has always been a complex relationship. Since when Titus’ legions destroyed the Temple of Jerusalem, giving birth to the Diaspora, to when in the 19th century the young Zionist movement of Theodore Herzl saw in the Risorgimento and in Garibaldi an inspiring example for the unification and liberation of an entire people. Precisely because of this strong and ancient tradition between Rome and Jerusalem, I believe the time has come for Rome to recognise Jerusalem has been the ancestral capital of the Jewish people for 3,000 years. As the United States has done in a gesture of great friendship”.
Translated by Barbara Bacci