Juan Carlos Torre claims that the PRO is not a party of ideas: “They don’t have words to define ‘left’ and ‘right’, so they have to conceptualize everything through a method,” said the sociologist and writer in Modo Fontevecchiaby Net TV and Radio Perfil (101.9).
What message do you think Cristina Kirchner wanted to give Alberto Fernández when she recommended her book Diario de una temporada en el 5 piso and later assured that the president had not read it?
The book is a kind of breaking latest news of what can happen to a government when it decides to go to International Monetary Fund. From what Cristina says, it seems that Alberto did not read the book because continued to insist with the IMF.
Do you think there was an alternative to the agreement with the Fund?
Let’s go back in time. The deal he made Alfonsin with the IMF was exceptional, because the Fund was forced to approve a plan that was in contradiction with its philosophy. It is historical what happened in Argentina in 1985 because the economic team walked around the world sticking out their chests for forcing the Fund to swallow its medicine. In that circumstance it was negotiated successfully. In the current case, the reality is that to the extent that one owes money, the fund will have to intervene because it is a kind of public accountant for creditors. At the moment we are in a totally bizarre situation where a candidate for president is negotiating with the IMF. The Fund has Argentina in a very strange place and these things happen because the country is negotiating with the Fund at the same time that another sector tries to break.
During the program we reflected on the conflict in Jujuy and the erroneous statement of Together for Change that attributed the responsibilities to Kirchnerism when history shows countless examples of huge protests in which Kirchnerism was not involved. On the other hand, Alfredo Cornejo considers that the problem is cultural and not political, and that anyone who says that they are going to change the economic norms from one day to the next is wrong. What is your vision of the applicability of a plan based on the acceptance capacity that a society can have of him?
Cornel a few months ago he assured that Together for Change was going to be things with “blood, sweat and tears” and now looks like a warm. We are experiencing a situation of great uncertainty and people do not know what to do. This country has a formidable veto power who managed to enter the supposed strongholds of authoritarian regimes. You have to be very cautious when you say you want to enter “sack” as it happens in many provinces. The other day there was a spot for Patricia Bullrich taking everyone ahead. those kinds of gestures Activate Argentina’s resistance capacity that he is likely to belong to the left but that, although he can mess up the street, he has few votes. The rest of the political arc should learn to position itself to neutralize the provocations.
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Are the facts of Jujuy in the column in this example of Patricia Bullrich?
Jujuy has the two components of one crisis: a measure of the Morales government and a violent reaction. That is the ideal combination to precipitate a crisis. I would like to know if the government of Morales he thought about what he was getting into by taking a decision that is conceptually correct, but that is complicated in the middle of an electoral campaign. It seems to me a mistake.
Do you think that this type of conflict will occur after December 10 if Juntos por el Cambio wins?
It may be because the examples abound. Since Trump decided to take the Capitol and Bolsonaro did the same in Brasilia, lThe idea of occupying the legislature became a new device of the protests. Before the streets were occupied, now it is done with the establishments of democracy. Last night I was thinking this might be some kind of rehearsal. If we walk towards the end of December with blindfolded eyes, these things can happen.
I remember that, in the big protests of 2001, the demonstrators were about to enter the Congress and the Casa Rosada.
It is probable, because those who tried it found that they could do it with complete peace of mind. In this years we went through a new sequence in which the protest began to be channeled and the Peronist party was able to administer it. Today, Peronism entered a state of decomposition and the protest has spontaneous outings. You have to raise your guard, this does not mean that you have to set up a repressive apparatus, but it does mean that you have to be intelligent when making decisions.
Do you understand that the situation can be positive in the sense of anticipating to Together for Change what your reality will be like when it comes to governing?
It may be, but it is a curious celebration of our 40 years of democracy.
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Do you think you could govern through referendums?
I would not dare to go through that alternative because can be easily contaminated and rotten fish can enter the plebiscite.
How do you imagine the solution to this crisis?
I have no idea, will depend on political intelligence that is not democratically distributed among all Argentines. Today I look at who has the power of decision and I worry if they are smart or not. For 18 years, peron was exiled and had as a policy destabilize the solutions put together by those who had overthrown him. The displacement of a sector of Peronism from power can recreate the policy of destabilization. That makes the rest of the political arc close ranks. Voting is not enough reconciliation with social forces is necessary. At this moment we have a dilemma that is to manage the discontent.
Do you think that Cristina Kirchner’s insistence on Alberto Fernández to read her book is a message that neither the president nor the Minister of Economy have all the power?
Of course. The powers that be are always active. There are people who talk about proposals for the country and they seem very innocent to me. If you spend a week in the Casa Rosada you will realize that it is not enough to capture the votewaist is needed to handle the pressures that are always on.
Jujuy | What are the points of the constitutional reform that triggered the conflict?
How do you see Sergio Massa as Minister of Economy?
He is a very curious character and I don’t know how he is received in the FMI. That a candidate for president negotiates an agreement with the Fund seems to me amusing. He it has a lot of waist capacity and that has allowed him to surf for Argentine politics. We still do not know who Massa is, we only know that he is a man who brings and brings.
Alejandro Gomel: There are those who say that this crisis is similar to that of 1989 and others who say that it is similar to that of 2001. Do you find similarities with these historical moments?
That of 1989 was different because Alfonsín was trying to reach the end of his government in a situation of decline and a candidate appeared who spoke of salary, something that generated important speculation. Today we do not have an alternative of that destabilizing magnitude. If we remove that component, we have to look the other way and we can see that the economy has its difficulties and that society is in permanent tension. This, in some ways, is closer to the year 2001. The country is sleepwalking towards a crisis. In 2001 anarchy dominated and there was a total disorder that ended with blood. It cannot be that they offer the Argentines another show of that magnitude. Menem did what he did because he had his back covered with the justicialismo behind.
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Jorge Fontevecchia: Among the candidates for Together for Change, one perceives a difference in manners, beyond diagnosis. But its economists coincide in proposing quick measures and a major adjustment. Do you understand that these proposals are based on inexperience?
The economists of Together for Change they are not speaking honestly. I do not think they have a unanimous opinion regarding the need for a structural adjustment.
Do you think economists say what the candidates want to hear?
It is probable. The PRO is not a party of ideas and he cannot conceive of their differences if it is not through the method. They don’t have words to define “left” and “right” so they have to conceptualize everything through a method. Beyond the problem of method, there is the problem of the direction of change and how the sociopolitical equation is set up in the future.
How do you think the economy will be at the time of the change of government?
are being done great efforts to get the economy somehow or another to December. But those efforts are human and are doomed to the fragility of the human condition. Hopefully they can be effective efforts.
ADP