He repeats it three times within a minute. “Let’s not play with fire.” Giuseppe Conte thinks of Putin, of the atomic threat, and answers the questions in this interview with La Stampa with the heart muscle that seems frozen. Shrunken. The line comes and goes, while the car that takes him around for the last rallies in Campania four days after the vote passes under the tunnels of an Italy in which communication seems impossible. He and the Democratic Party. Him and Calenda. Renzi and Meloni waging war on the poor. Him and Draghi. Him and Salvini. Democracy at risk. When the car stops, an increasingly loud buzz is heard in the background. A lady shouts: «Joseph let me kiss you». After forty minutes of phone call he says: “Excuse me, now I need to be with them.” The polls can not cite them. But that adoring crowd in front of him seems to have the strength of a wave.
President Conte, Putin has announced partial military mobilization. The special operation became a war.
“I was afraid of military escalation. That’s what’s happening. “
Do you think Moscow will use the atomic bomb?
“I am very worried, because in the strategy we are implementing there does not seem to be a way out”.
Is there a way out?
“Exists. And we have been indicating it for months. A peace negotiation that prevents the conflict from reaching larger and out of control proportions. We cannot ignore the fact that Russia is a superpower with a military arsenal of unconventional weapons ”.
Many international observers believe that Putin is the bluff of an autocrat with his back to the wall. Chancellor Scholz speaks of “a desperate man”.
«It seems to me that at this moment no one can afford to bet on Putin’s intentions. On the other hand, the reactions of an autocrat with his back to the wall can be very dangerous. The stakes are too high. I repeat, diplomatic efforts are needed which must see Italy as a protagonist within the Atlantic alliance. I say this with sincere concern: no one plays with fire ».
The Kremlin will recall 300,000 reservists to the front, a sign that things are not going well on the ground. Meanwhile, young people flee en masse from Moscow and St. Petersburg.
«I don’t want to deceive myself. It is risky to imagine that Putin’s regime is faltering and that it can be overthrown militarily. We must seek a political victory that protects the rights of the Ukrainians by guaranteeing a solid and lasting peace ».
I try again: how?
“A peace negotiation requires intense diplomatic efforts and great determination. It also suits Putin. This is what we must aim for ».
At the moment Putin is also deaf to the increasingly pressing invitations of Chinese President Xi Jinping.
«The channels for building peace are always found. The problem is that this perspective seems incomprehensibly removed and certainly even within the European Union there is no real conviction that this is the right direction ».
Does Draghi seem unconvinced?
“I have seen a government attentive in following a strategy decided in Washington when it would have been more useful to help direct the Euro-Atlantic strategy towards a negotiated solution”.
If you had been the prime minister, would you have said no to sanctions and the dispatch of weapons?
“I always replied that I would say yes to sanctions and that certainly the Ukrainians could not defend themselves with their bare hands. But that after the initial phase it was necessary to pursue a strategy that would lead us out of an all-out war ».
Is the alliance with the United States becoming a problem?
«The Euro-Atlantic alliance is certainly not a problem, much less is it under discussion. But we have the right to discuss the role that Europe and Italy want and can play fairly ”.
Do Europe and the United States have different interests?
“That strategic interests cannot be superimposed is self-evident. But working together is necessary, without forgetting that this war is in the heart of Europe and is causing a recessive spiral paid heavily by our fellow citizens ».
Is the US-Taiwan crisis as worrying as that between Russia and Ukraine?
“It’s another hotbed of tension. If we do not face it with sagacity and prudence, it can lead to a new dangerous crisis ».
The Movement has never hidden its sympathies towards Beijing. She signed the agreements on the Silk Road.
«As Prime Minister, the only sympathy I had was towards our trade balance. Other European countries do more business with China than we do. Bridging the gap seemed right and necessary to me. I softly point out that we signed that agreement after thirteen other European countries and for the first time we made the Chinese sign clauses in line with Western values that were initially inadmissible for them ».
Would you sign it again?
«I would do it again.
People’s Advocate. Do you still like the nickname?
“I like.
A Salvinian formula.
“False. A formula coined by me with a specific intent: to claim the goal of beating the privileges of the usual suspects. To stay close to the weakest. To give a voice to those who are not listened to, to those who remain invisible. The word people is unjustly and snootily attributed a derogatory meaning ».
Did Trump’s Giuseppi mark it?
“In no way. He was just a certificate of esteem ».
Reciprocated?
“The political pillars that former President Trump and I refer to are very different. Starting with foreign policy. He has a bilateral view. I am a firm supporter of the multilateralist approach ».
Do you regret the government made together with Salvini?
«No, but I would like to point out that during that government we still achieved most of the objectives of the program presented during the electoral campaign. We imposed citizenship income on the Lega, the dignity decree against temporary employment and the law against corruption, just to mention the first three things that come to mind ».
Speaking of people. She has now removed the clutch and put on the shirt. She is the only leader to physically indulge in the crowd. An almost Berlusconian choice.
«A Contian choice. For me, confrontation with people is normal. Rather, I am surprised that Meloni and Renzi invoke military garrisons to move around the territory ».
Renzi argues that it is his fault that he has to go around with the escort.
“It twists and distorts things as usual. I fear that Renzi arouses antipathy in people regardless of me ».
Is the Movement the party of welfare?
“Absolutely no. Even if the opponents try to crush us on this cliché. We are a political force that pursues an idea of developing the country and at the same time believes in a system of social protection. That same protection that decades of politics that preceded us have not been able to guarantee ».
Its popularity is dramatically growing. You are very strong in the South and weak in the North. Are you more interested in who is unemployed than who gives it or creates it?
«To support him is absurd. We have raised the national productive fabric with the super bonus that has relaunched the construction sector, introduced the state guarantee to give liquidity to companies, created the package for transition and innovation 4.0 and, if they give us the opportunity, we will be the strength a policy that the Statute will make for companies by canceling IRAP and radically simplifying the relationship between companies and the public administration. Thanks to our measures, the GDP grew by 6.6% ».
A merit also attributed to Draghi.
“Even a new economics student knows that the budget law has an effect on the following year. The one that made us make the leap is signed by me ».
I quote Giorgia Meloni: I dream of a country where those who have had to keep it bent for so many years raise their heads for fear of being thrown out.
“If you are referring to the neo-fascists it would be better if they continued to keep it down.”
Four days after the vote, doesn’t the lack of an agreement between you and the Democratic Party seem surreal to you?
“The lack of this agreement is the result of the persistent determination of the Democratic Party to marginalize us to get votes”.
She accuses Letta, Letta accuses her. Meanwhile, the right gets its hands on Palazzo Chigi.
“Letta accuses me of not having signed a Draghi diary that does not exist and of not following a Draghi method that in fact I do not follow”.
Because?
«Because it is only a question of self-referential decision-making. In a parliamentary democracy it is inadmissible ».
By switching from Draghi to Meloni, does Italy make a profit or lose out?
“I would wait until 25 September before crowning Meloni, but one thing seems clear to me already now: Renzi and Meloni are waging war on the poor on citizenship income”.
Does the Movement or the Democratic Party get more votes?
«We will see this too at the time of the counting. But by voting for us, the voters know that we will be faithful to the program ».
Nicola Fratoianni says that to stop the right he would be willing to stay in government even with Calenda. She?
“I do not intend to hold my nose and I am not open to equivocal formulas that have the government as their sole objective.”
The government doesn’t go there alone for sure.
«A government perspective with Calenda, which has the sole merit of bringing Renzi back to Parliament, is simply impossible. Calenda makes fun of voters with a political proposal that does not exist: to bring Draghi back to Palazzo Chigi. Too bad he doesn’t want to. He sells a non-existent political project ».
Is it true that you often compare yourself with D’Alema?
«I rarely compare with D’Alema, but when it happens the exchanges are never trivial. He is an interlocutor of rare political intelligence ».
President, is democracy at risk?
«The recipes of the right are inadequate and, moreover, the recent vote in the European parliament by Salvini and Meloni in favor of Orban marks a very worrying news. If they share this illiberal and autocratic turn and if the political project they defend is that of Vox in Spain, then I take the liberty of saying that they are definitely not fit to govern here in Italy ».